ABS pipe burried in concrete wall with water line behind. How to add a fitting?

[magnumpl]

Hi. I am having a bit of an issue adding a fitting in that vertical pipe. It is burried in concrete and there is a copper water line sitting right behind the ABS pipe.

There was an old san-tee in the spot so someone probably patched the hole with concrete. I had to be really careful while cutting the old tee out and removing the cement around it.

Now I am not sure how to fit the wye in there since there is no room to wiggle the ABS so that I could fit the wye to the bottom and add a fernco from the top. Also, I wont be able to slide 2 couplings, from the bottom and fron the top, due to the copper pipe being too close, plus not having enough room from the bottom to slide the fernco before fitting the wye. Can't use a fernco thats soft enough to fold it before fitting the wye and then unfolding it, due to the copper pipe...

Do you know of any tricks to add a tee when an ABS is sitting tight and having little room around it and below?

 

[polesapart]

This is a UK site; practices and material ranges differ from yours

That said, try exposing more pipe and using what I believe you colonials term a "no-hub" fitting in the appropriate size as a slip connector.

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would be one uk variant of what I mean.

HTH

 

[magnumpl]

Yes, I'm in USA. We use IPC 2020 in Florida.
I don't think the unshielded Fernco is allowed anymore but I'm not sure.

I can't find the info if I can use a no hub such as Proflex which has a shield and 2 bands, or if I need a no arc with 3-4 bands. Also, I won't be able to use the coupling with a stop in the center, due to the copper line in the back.

 

[magnumpl]

I would extremely appreciate someone's help!

Looks like it's even worse...I was hoping that the copper pipe turns a bit higher where it comes out of the wall from the water heater but no...there's actually 3 copper pipes burried in that wall. With the one in above picture being right behind the ABS pipe so I cannot even slide a coupling in there.

I was also hoping that I would be able to locate the copper pipes under slab, then run new lines outside of the wall and connect it underground but I found just one water line. I have no idea where the other 2 copper lines are going.

I will still try to look for the copper underground but I don't think I'll find it without cutting a big portion of the slab. I wouldn't want to leave those copper pipes as is, since it's most likely going to leak at some point. Or would you just leave it?

Now, theres another issue which I need to take care of as well. I need to fix the vertical pipe and two fixtures (or 3 if possible). I'll probably drain the macerator into a new horizontal branch so I won't worry about that now.

As mentioned before, the copper line sits right behind the ABS with no room behind to fit any coupling (neither slip, no hub, or rubber) at the top so I was thinking of using an internal coupling at the top and a fitting from the bottom.

OR skipping the center section of that pipe completely, adding 45 fittings to run a new pipe along the wall, then tying in at the upper section of the vent (where the cinder block is empty).

I made a few sketches.

Option 1:
Internal coupling from the top, fitting from the bottom. Keeping the pipe as it was before.

Option 2:
Internal coupling from the top, fitting from the bottom. Keeping the pipe as additional vent but adding a new stack for the fixtures.

Option 3:
Internal coupling from the top, fitting from the bottom. Keeping the pipe as additional vent but adding a horizontal drain line for the fixtures

Option 4:
Ditching the middle section of the burried vertical pipe and tying a new stack (which would be the easiest option and I wouldn't need to use any couplings). Then adding the drains for fixtures fron other options.

 

[polesapart]

Makes no sense to me. OK, codes and practices differ, but encasing pipework in vertical sheets or piers of concrete seems mad IMO .

What about thermal expansion of the pipework- not inconsiderable for ABS ?

I think you'd be better off consulting a more local forum.

Best wishes.

 

[magnumpl]

By thermal expansion, do you mean creating a loop for the copper pipes, so that it comes out of the wall and joins at the very bottom where it hides underground?
If so, that would still require me to chip the wall, as there are 3 copper lines inside the wall and I don't know which one goes to to/from the water heater and what is the 3rd copper line.

Or do you mean heating up the ABS pipe to give it some flexibility?

I tried asking in a few local forums but couldn't find any help. USA's construction, including plumbing, is very limited and everyone follows same guidlines. Other countries in UK and EU have a much wider variety of options and workarounds. The way this house was built and the DIY that was done by the previous owner need a special approach and workarounds.

 

[Madrab]

TBH and it's probably not what you want to hear, but I'd be opening that up more to get a better look at what's going on and probably give more space and flexibility in the plastic and water pipes to allow you to configure it the way you need. What is that wall though, is it load bearing?

As has been mentioned though, that's a shocking approach for pipework, worst case for that should have been a formed channel to run all of that within.

 

[magnumpl]

Yes, it's a load bearing. Moreover the pipes go down into a reinforced foundation of the wall.
I opened the wall even more but the water lines make turns inside the concrete and are ran in a slalom which makes it very difficult to trace. I dont want to damage it since I am not sure if one of these isn't the main line from the city into the meter.

 

[Madrab]

I'd then be tempted to just add an elbow onto that bottom pipe and bring it out of the wall then run it vertically, attach what you need in the way of branches for the appliance and then up and reconnect into the pipe above for the vent.

My only concern around all of that would be - what would the max outflow be? Wouldn't normally use a 40mm (11/2") vertical waste pipe like that with multiple 40mm outlets all feeding into it, could become overwhelmed really quickly, it would normally all be run into a a 110mm (4") stack.

Is there anything else above all of that that also uses that waste as an outflow?

 

[magnumpl]

Thank you.

Is there anything else above all of that that also uses that waste as an outflow?

The pipes are 2", that's why I am using a Saniflo macerator to grind the waste. The 2" runs from the garage (with proposed half bath), then a kitchen sink ties into that line, then it ties into a 4" line which is used for 2 bathrooms on the other side of the house, next is the main sewer line.

I'd then be tempted to just add an elbow onto that bottom pipe and bring it out of the wall then run it vertically, attach what you need in the way of branches for the appliance and then up and reconnect into the pipe above for the vent.

I was planning on doing it the way you suggested or having the main stack running with a new stack but with this configuration (1st pic) the tees would be at this height:
- 17" for Saniflo wye
- 22" for washer tee
- 27" for cleanout tee
- the sink would be tied into the main stack to eliminate the need for another vent

I assume that this would not be acceptable, unless I drain the macerator above the washer tee, but I don't think this is a good idea with a pressurized waste.

Another option (2nd pic) would be to just use the vertical vent that is encased in concrete wall, while skipping the secondary stack. The height would be as follow:
- 9" for Saniflo wye
- 14" for washer tee (with a vent)
- 19" for sink tee
- 24" for cleanout

With this option everything seems to meet the code but would require me to make a large opening in the wall and finding a way of keeping the structural streght of the wall without burring the pipes in concrete.

Third option (3rd pic) would be pretty much the same as option 2 but using a double santee or double fixture fitting (not sure which one is correct) to eliminate the need for a vent for washer. It would also be much wasier to do.

I would prefer option 1 or 3.
Which is the right way of doing this?

I would appreciate your insight.

 

[Madrab]

You have a lot going on there and we obviously work a little differently to the US as far as specs and standards are concerned. We also work in metric to so conversion is a little convoluted.

So 2" is 50mm in our spec - Macerators are nasty things too but if needs must, it that for a toilet? Again as far as codes are concerned (UK regs), all of that would not be connected to a 50mm waste and we would have to increase that to a 110mm (4") vented stack.

All that aside then a secondary vertical waste setup would be the easiest and safest approach if opening the wall up is not an option. Putting all that onto a single 50mm vertical run though will be putting it under a lot of pressure as far as capacity is concerned, depending on how much may be draining into it at the one time, especially if 2 of those outlets will be pumped. To give each outlet the best chance, if their runs will be sealed, then they should be individually vented (AAV) to avoid self syphoning of the traps, would also remove the need to connect to the main run for venting. Not sure if you have anti vac traps in the US?

Obviously the fittings in the US are named differently so need to decipher that, also not really sure of all the fittings that the US has compared to the UK. We wouldn't use double inlet connections (double fixture fitting?) like that as it could promote crossflow.

Looks like it's leaning towards option 1.